The Yoga of Desire (Vedanta Sutra)

Nityananda! Gauranga! Hare Krsna!
Dear Swami Gaurangapada and assembled devotees,
please accept my simple obiesances.

Here is a discussion I am having with some empiricists (scientists) presently. It is stretching me beyond my intellect, but relishable to glorify the Supreme Truth.
Dear devotees I thought this simple service may bring some joy to you all, therefore I am posting.

Originally Posted by Nava

Ch 4 Verse 9 here

janma karma ca me divyam / evam yo vetti tattvatah
tyaktva deham punar janma / naiti mam eti so ’rjuna

Click here to read Shrila Prabhupada's Bhagavad Gita As It Is 4.9 <http://www.bhagavadgitaasitis.com/4/9/en>

arjuna---O Arjuna; me---My; janma---birth; ca---and; karma--- activities; (are) divyam---transcendental; (one) yah---who; vetti--- knows; evam---thus; tattvatah---in truth; tyaktva---having given up; deham---the body; na eti---does not accept; punah---again; janma---(re) birth; sah---he; eti.comes; mam---to Me.

O Arjuna! My birth and activities are transcendental. One who knows this in truth does not take another birth after giving up the present body. He certainly attains Me.

SARARTHA-VARShINI
BY ShRILA VIShVANATHA CAKRAVARTI THAKURA

"One will only become perfect when he has understood the essence of the transcendental nature of My birth (janma) and activities (karma), which are endowed with the characteristics described in the previous shlokas." This shloka, beginning with the word janma, is spoken to explain this. Shripada Ramanujacarya and Shripada Madhusudana Sarasvati explain that the word divya means aprakrita, transcendental, and Shrila Shridhara Svami has translated it as alaukika, not of this material world. The material world is created by prakriti (material nature), thus by the word alaukika Shrila Shridhara Svamipada also implies aprakrita. Consequently, because the birth and activities of Shri Bhagavan are aprakrita and beyond the modes, they are nitya (eternal). In the Bhagavat-sandarbha, Shrila Jiva Gosvami refers to this present subject in his explanation of the shloka: na vidyate yasya ca janma karma va (Shrimad-Bhagavatam (8.3.8)). He explains that, although this matter cannot be comprehended by logic, on the strength of statements from the Vedas and Smriti it must be accepted as being beyond reason. In this regard, it is also said in the Purusha-bodhini shruti of Piplada-shakha:

eko deva nitya-lilanurakto / bhakta-hridy antar-atma

Eternally engaged in His pastimes, the one Lord in His form of Antaryami enters within the hearts of His bhaktas. Regarding the eternality of Shri Bhagavan's birth and activities (janma and karma), detailed descriptions have been given in Shrimad-Bhagavatam. "After hearing My statements such as: yo vetti tattvatah (Gita 4.9), ajo 'pi sann avyayatma (Gita 4.6) and janma karma ca me divyam (Gita 4.9), one who understands the eternal nature of My birth and activities with theistic intelligence-that is, who is not dependent on empiricism to accept it-does not have to take birth again in this material world."

"Those who in truth understand the word tat in the statement of Gita (17.23)-om tat sad iti nirdesho brahmanas trividha h smritah to mean brahma do not have to take birth again after giving up their present body. Rather, it is assured that they attain Me." Here Bhagavan gives a superior meaning to the phrase 'giving up the body'. "Such a person does not take another birth after giving up the body. Rather, he attains Me even without giving it up."

Shripada Ramanujacarya writes paraphrasing Krishna, "All sins that impede one on the path to attain My full shelter are completely destroyed by true knowledge of My transcendental birth and activities. Only those dear devotees who have taken shelter of Me, attain Me even in this very life."

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Gita 4.9: O Arjuna! My birth and activities are transcendental. One who knows this in truth does not take another birth after giving up the present body. He certainly attains Me.

Dear Nava,

In my understanding ‘knowing something’ is equivalent to ‘being consciously aware of something’, whereas ‘knowledge’ or ‘consciousness’ is not necessarily equivalent to ‘understanding’. If one understands something then one automatically knows it, but if one knows something one may not understand it.

Then what did ShRILA VIShVANATHA CAKRAVARTI THAKURA mean when he stated in his explanation of Gita 4.9: “… one who understands the eternal nature of My birth and activities with theistic intelligence-that is, who is not dependent on empiricism to accept it - does not have to take birth again in this material world.”?

And can you tell me what Prabhupada meant when he stated in his explanation of the same Gita verse: “… there are many transcendental forms of the Lord, they are still one and the same Supreme Personality of Godhead. One has to understand this fact with conviction, although it is incomprehensible to mundane scholars and empiric philosophers. As stated in the Vedas”?

Does this mean that the scientific (empirical) method cannot be a valid path to arrive at true/absolute knowledge, or does it mean that these men simply didn’t understand science?

Kind regards, Bart

Does this mean that the scientific (empirical) method cannot be a valid path to arrive at true/absolute knowledge, or does it mean that these men simply didn’t understand science? by Bart

Firstly Bart, scripture is made of words. While we are in this body/mind consciousness we need to use words, to convey or point to, the transcendental reality. Empiricism is basically dealing with the substance of this universe. The transcendental is a totally different field of reality than matter.

The intelligent person (jnani) will negate, for example, spirit is not this thing, spirit is not that thing. And on and on, but still such an approach only points to the subject matter of transcendence. It is not this, it is not that!

Ravindran for example has had such a profound encounter. Such deep knowledge and experience. But it seems from his writing his answers are not satisfying him with the 'point'. The goal has not been pinned down yet. Such a great mind and mystic.

Krsna and the other forms of transcendence are a higher principle. This is called adhoksaja. This higher principle has a nature called 'pressing down'. It can press down to us. But we have no claim to extrapolate, then quantify, by our own frog mentality. Mr. Frog sits in his well with his small pond. 'Oh the ocean is like this, and the ocean is like that. There is no sunshine near the ocean etc etc'.

The adhoksaja plane is so great, it may take many many births using empiricism to even gain a glimpse. If we are gleaning a hint through the empirical mode it is because of a very good pious birth, after many many such births. And also due to association with devotees.

Try to understand the adhoksaja plane of existence is living, full of personality. If you had a friend, would it be wise to quantify him/her. Catergorize and box him/her. Measure, probe...and then out of complete pride say, 'You are like this! I have studied you well!'. Would that be pleasing to your friend?

Any sane man knows Bart, such dealings on a personal level are never satisfying. A conscious feeling entity hardly ever, fully grants full affection, when treated as an object. And in fact, the nature of the so-called object is not really known by the fool. By some good fortune if we begin to treat the other with affection (bhakti)...the other begins to open and reveal who they truly are. Such is the nature of love.

What this Gita commentary is saying simply, is the adhoksaja plane of affection is living and full of conscious diversity. It will press down and come to us if we simply 'surrender' in love. Bhakti being the highest principle, the nature of the adhoksaja plane.

I cannot explain it to you. I can only admonish you to put faith in the scriptures I have presented, and to begin devotional service. I can only point by using words, which are temporary and of this world.

Then what did ShRILA VIShVANATHA CAKRAVARTI THAKURA mean when he stated in his explanation of Gita 4.9: “… one who understands the eternal nature of My birth and activities with theistic intelligence-that is, who is not dependent on empiricism to accept it - does not have to take birth again in this material world.”?

And can you tell me what Prabhupada meant when he stated in his explanation of the same Gita verse: “… there are many transcendental forms of the Lord, they are still one and the same Supreme Personality of Godhead. by Bart

Bart, those with material consciousness only see a sectarian God and division. Those who have awoken (by the grace of a pure devotee) to the truth of vedanta sutra, know that the truth is non-sectarian and non-dual (inconceivably full of diversity). The Supreme Personality (reality) reciprocates with each devotee who has pure 'desire' of love. Yoga means fulfillment of 'desire' Bart, spiritual union. It is inconceivable to the mind, how a devotee can cultivate and attain a spiritual reality (vaikuntha planet) or impersonal liberation. It is inconceivable that the absolute Personality of Godhead manifests diverse realities to satisfy the devotees heart. It almost appears that the absolute becomes a servant. How is that? Love.

It is very difficult for me to formulate this in words Bart (I have seen it in my heart - even though you doubt). It is almost if the higher plane, the super-soul becomes a servant. It is the sweetest of loving dealings.

The materialist (mayavadi) will identify himself as the supreme God at some point. Due to lacking fine theistic intelligence of this great mystery. We are never the supreme but we are one with it. We are particle servants of a divine Personality that manifests the devotees inner most desires. Even the material world if that is what we desired. Ravindran has pointed to a great mystery of universes upon universes in this very world Bart. That is mind reality and still of this world. It is not the Transcendental.

Srila Prabhupada is pointing to that Krsna, that Rama, that Nrsingha etc etc. He calls it the Supreme Personality of Godhead. What is that Supreme Personality of Godhead...it is the finest principle. It is the Anandamaya Personality. We gain fullest satisfaction by serving it.

It is so profound it may even appear as a baby, or small cowherd boy....within the heart of hearts. It is the fullest satisfaction and desire of the pure heart.

I have pointed you to the Vedanta Sutra with commentary by Srila Baladeva Vidyabushana several times. It will explain what Anandamaya is. Vidyabushana was a master of using words, and much more realized in the subject than me. Therefore I serve such a master, and hope (with love) for the higher principle to press down to my soul. Our tradition is descending from Sri Krsna Caitanya, the master of all potencies.

I can copy and paste many quotes from the Vedanta Sutra for you Bart, but I think you are quite capable of reading it and understanding it, if you have any 'desire' for bhakti and 'surrender'.

Vedanta Sutra
Sutra 15
mantra-varnikam eva ca giyate

mantra—by the mantra portion of the Vedas; varnikam—described; eva—certainly; ca—also; giyate—is described.

(The same Supreme Personality of Godhead) described in the mantra-portion of the Vedas is also described (as the anandamaya-person in the text of the Taittiriya Upanishad).

Purport by Baladeva Vidyabhushana

The same Supreme Brahman described in the Vedic mantra, Satyam jnanam anantam brahma (the Supreme Brahman has no limits. He is eternal and full of knowledge), is also described in the Taittiriya Upanishad by the word anandamaya. In this way the above sutra explains that the word anandamaya does not refer to the individual living entitiy. Further, the Taittiriya Upanishad explains:

brahma-vid apnoti param

"One who understands the Supreme Brahman attains the Supreme Brahman."

This sentence explains that the individual living entity worships the Supreme Brahman and then attains the association of that Supreme Brahman. This is the same Supreme Brahman previously described in the mantra, satyam jnanam anantam brahma. This is the Supreme Brahman described by the word anandamaya. This is the Supreme Brahman described in the Taittiriya Upanishad in the passage begining with the words tasmad va etasmat. Because the Supreme Brahman is the object of attainment for the individual spirit soul, and because the object of attainment and the attainer must be two distinct entities, and they cannot be identical, therefore the Supreme Brahman and the individual living entities must be distinct persons, and therefore the word anandamaya refers only to the Supreme Personality of Godhead and not to the individual living entites.

At this point someone may raise the following objection: If the Supreme Brahman described in the Vedic mantras were different from the individual living entity, then the individual living enitites could not be the anandamaya person described in the scriptures. The actual fact is that the Supreme Brahman and the individual living entities are identical. The Vedic mantras state that when the individual spirit soul is free from ignorance and liberated from material bondage, then he become identical with the Supreme Brahman.

To answer this objection, Shrila Vyasadeva speaks the following sutra.

Sutra 16

netaro 'nupapatteh

na—not; itarah—the other; upapatteh—because it is illogical.

The other person (individual living entity) is not described (in the mantra "satyam jnanam anantam brahma"), because such an interpretation of the mantra is illogical.

Purport by Shrila Baladeva Vidyabhushana

The itara (other person) mentioned in this sutra is the individual living entity. This sutra, therefore, states that the individual spirit soul, even in the liberated condition, cannot be the Supremem Person described in the mantra, satyam jnanam anantam brahma. This is confirmed by the following statement of Vedic literature:

so 'shnute sarvan kaman saha brahmana vipashcita

"The liberated soul enjoys the fulfillment of all his desires in the company of the omniscient Supreme Brahman."

In this passage the difference between the liberated spirit-soul and the Supreme Brahman is described in the words "He enjoys in the company of the Supreme Brahman." The word vipascit means "He whose consciousness (cit) sees (pashyati) the great variety of that which exists (vividham). The word pashya is changed to pash in this word by the grammatical formula prishodaradi-gana (Panini 6.3.109). In this way the liberated individual soul attains the association of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is expert at enjoying many varieties of transcendental bliss, and with Him, the individual spirit soul enjoys, fulfilling all his desires.

The word asnute should be understood to mean "enjoys" in this context. The verb ash means "to enjoy", and although we would expect it to be conjugated in the parasmaipada, (ashnati), in this passage it is conjugated in the atmanepada (ashnute). The reason for this is explained by Panini in the sutra vyatyayo bahulam iti chandasi tatha smriteh (3.1.85).

The Supreme Personality of Godhead is naturally the Supreme Enjoyer, and the individual spirit soul is His subordinate in the matter of enjoyment also. Still, the Supreme Personality of Godhead glorifies the liberated souls, when He says:

vashe kurvanti mam bhaktah
sat-striyah sat-patim yatha

"My pure devotees bring Me under their control, just as faithful wives bring a kind-hearted husband under their control."

y.s.Nava.

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